Beware Muslims, had they won the Lina Joy case, Islam will cease to exists as we know it. I wrote this article a while ago, to answer a certain request made by a representative from The Brunei Times. Unfortunately, my article succeeded not in getting through the editor's filter. But instead of scrapping it, I'm posting it here, so that anyone interested in the facts of the case may access an abridged version of it. And most importantly, you would be able to understand what grave implications the case would have had in store for the rest of us Muslims had it been decided in Lina Joy's favour. (The implications of the case also happen to be something few people are aware of.)
I used very simple English and tried my best not to use any legal terms, so this should be a very accessible article. If anyone has any questions, feel free to ask, and I'll try my best to answer them. (I have direct access to the PPI lawyers, so if you have any questions of legal nature that I am unable to answer myself I will immediately forward it to them.)
====================================
I think it better to grab than lose your attention, hence I will explain using layman's terms and refrain from bombarding you with legalese while I go about explaining the Lina Joy case.
Lina Joy, born 'Azlina Jailani', claimed to have embraced Christianity at the age of 26.
Over the years she has expressed her desire to enter into a legal marriage and have a child. However, she could not do this for the laws of Malaysia forbid inter-religious marriages.To this effect she then sought legal recognition of her faith from the National Registration Department (NRD), by applying for the removal of the word 'Islam' from her identity card. The NRD, thinking itself unfit to take religious affairs into its hands (being only an administrative body), insisted that she first produce a declaration from the Syariah court that acknowledged her renunciation of Islam, and went on to reject her application when she could not do so.
Lina refused to visit the Syariah court. She also claimed that it had become unfit to hear her matter, by virtue of her having left the Islamic faith. Thus began the legal battle that would span nearly a decade.
Lina Joy's claims were founded upon two grounds:
* 1) Whether the NRD had acted properly in rejecting her application, and
* 2) Her insistence that the provisions of Article 11 of the Constitution gave her the complete freedom to profess any religion of her choosing.
The respondents (the Majlis Agama Islam, the Government of Malaysia, and the NRD) based their claims upon these grounds:
* 1) Article 160 of the Constitution, which states that a Malay must be of none other than the Islamic faith - i.e. He or she must be Muslim, and
* 2) As the issue of apostasy falls under the category of Islamic matters and doctrine, the only means of recourse, as provided for by Article 121 (1A) of the Constitution, would be available to her only through the Syariah court.
The High Court dismissed Lina Joy's claims on the grounds that it had no jurisdiction to hear her matter. She appealed to the Court of Appeal, on the grounds of administrative law, but did not succeed there. She then appealed to the Federal Court.
The Federal Court's decision was handed down on the 30th of May 2007, with the majority judgment ruling in favour of dismissing Lina Joy's appeal. (One judge dissented.) In essence, the majority judgement came to these conclusions:
* 1) For a Muslim, his religious rights and duties prior to his conversion remains unchanged until he gets a declaration from the Syariah Court saying that he is no longer a Muslim.
* 2) Article 11 (1) does not give rise to absolute freedom of religion.
* 3) The right to profess and practice a religion is subject to the principles and practice of that religion.
Mention must also be made of the two languages employed to deliver the decision -- Bahasa Malaysia (by the Chief Justice) and English (Chief Judge of Sabah and Sarawak). (This has resulted in the dissenting judgment enjoying more immediate coverage than the former. )
-----------
The multi-religious composition of Malaysia explains why there has been so much interest from the public since the very beginning.
For brevity's sake, perspective on this case could be said as coming from two camps: In the first, the Muslims, who feel enraged that Lina Joy has attempted to circumvent the jurisdiction of the Syariah court and hold that it amounts to an act of condescension towards the current dual-legal system in practice. In the second, the non-Muslims
and a small group of Malays (whose members fancy themselves 'liberal' Muslims), who endeavour to support Lina Joy's cause for it would champion issues such as human rights and fundamental liberties, which are dear to them.
I certainly beg to differ with the opinions of some who claim that at the heart of the Lina Joy case lies a dispute on religious freedom. I am inclined to offer this correction to them: that the case of Lina Joy has all along been concerned with the question as to which court has jurisdiction to try cases of apostasy involving Muslims, and that the issue of freedom of religion was auxiliary to this.
I must bring to light the fact that Lina Joy is not restricted from leaving the religion if she wishes for that. The decision affirms this contention of mine and makes lucid the fact that she needs to apply to visit the Syariah court to obtain a formal declaration to that effect, subject of course to the limits of jurisprudence.
Why then have some groups stretched the truth to fit their claims that the Lina Joy case amounts to obstructing altogether their right to freedom of religion? There has been much ado about this, especially on the Internet. (That's not taking into account their other interesting claims; for example, that the Lina Joy case has been decided unfairly
and has thus caused devastating implications to be wrought upon the citizens of this country.)
Unbeknownst to the masses, even ghastlier implications would have come to manifest had Lina Joy's appeal succeeded. I beg you to consider these, for instance:
* 1) The nullification of a vast array of laws - Abdul Hamid CAJ (as he then was) in Kamariah bte Ali v Kerajaan Negeri Kelantan, Malaysia opined that in allowing Article 11 to be construed so liberally would entail making invalid entire bodies of Islamic law; e.g. Zakat laws, marriage laws, et cetera. (In short, all Islamic laws would be rendered null and void.)
* 2) The coming to existence of a constitutional paradox - Article 160 of the Constitution states that a Malay must be a Muslim; thus, if a Malay person declares himself a non-Muslim, what race would he (legally) belong to then? As he cannot satisfy the constitutional criteria of a Malay, he would lose not only his Malay status but his Bumiputra privileges as well.
* 3) The diminution of the powers of the Syariah court - Not only would our Islamic court would be deprived of its right to adjudicate on matters of apostasy involving Muslims, said right would then be conferred to the civil court, whose judicial members are comprised of Muslims and non-Muslims trained in the intricacies of civil laws but not Islamic laws.
* 4) Of inheritance rights - Seeing as to the fact that Muslims and non-Muslims are governed by different inheritance laws, and the fact that non-Muslims cannot inherit from Muslims, one can easily imagine then the gory court battles that would emerge from disputes on inheritance.
* 5) The impossibility of religious enforcement - Consider perhaps, a man eating eating in public in the fasting month of Ramadhan who, when arrested by religious officers, professes to having left the Islamic faith. The religious officers would be unable to perform their duties if so.
One need not look more than twice at the above list to understand that it is the Muslims, comprising roughly 60% of the country's population, who would be adversely affected the most. (Article written by Mr Wan Zafran)
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Wednesday, June 25, 2008
The Lina Joy Case -- An 'Easy' Version
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111 comments:
A very misleading piece full of half-truths.
"I am inclined to offer this correction to them: that the case of Lina Joy has all along been concerned with the question as to which court has jurisdiction to try cases of apostasy involving Muslims, and that the issue of freedom of religion was auxiliary to this."
Technically true, but omits the fact that the Syariah court had NEVER permitted apostasy (well up until a few weeks ago in Penang), and definitely haS never permitted apostasy of a Malay.
One also can understand Lina Joy's obvious reluctance to go to Syariah court, given the court's detestable precedent of sending would-be apostates to "rehabilitation camps" which are comparable to Guantanamo Bay and clearly violate every human rights law on freedom of religion.
"Unbeknownst to the masses, even ghastlier implications would have come to manifest had Lina Joy's appeal succeeded. I beg you to consider these, for instance:"
Oh dear, allowing freedom of religion will DESTROY Islam. Funny how Indonesia, which freely allows conversion between faiths is still majority Muslim.
But hey, when rational arguments fail, one can always fall back on simple fear-mongering, eh?
"* 1) The nullification of a vast array of laws - Abdul Hamid CAJ (as he then was) in Kamariah bte Ali v Kerajaan Negeri Kelantan, Malaysia opined that in allowing Article 11 to be construed so liberally would entail making invalid entire bodies of Islamic law; e.g. Zakat laws, marriage laws, et cetera. (In short, all Islamic laws would be rendered null and void.)"
Highly unlikely. When a non-Muslim becomes a Muslim, it apparently does not "invalidate Muslim law" but when the reverse happens it will?
Some elaboration would be highly appreciated.
"* 2) The coming to existence of a constitutional paradox - Article 160 of the Constitution states that a Malay must be a Muslim; thus, if a Malay person declares himself a non-Muslim, what race would he (legally) belong to then? As he cannot satisfy the constitutional criteria of a Malay, he would lose not only his Malay status but his Bumiputra privileges as well."
Somehow, I doubt Lina Joy would care about her "legal racial status" more than her basic human rights. And there ARE non-muslim Bumiputras. Or have you forgotten our East Msian brothers?
And besides, the provision is foolish. How can one's race be dependent on one's religion? Does a Caucasian converting into Islam cease to be "White" and instead falls under the "Arab" tag?
A Malay will be a Malay, whether he/she is a Christian, Muslim, Bhuddist, atheist or Scientologist. To claim otherwise would be contravening irrefutable biological evidence. And only stupid people would do so, kan?
" * 3) The diminution of the powers of the Syariah court - Not only would our Islamic court would be deprived of its right to adjudicate on matters of apostasy involving Muslims, said right would then be conferred to the civil court, whose judicial members are comprised of Muslims and non-Muslims trained in the intricacies of civil laws but not Islamic laws."
Nothing wrong with that.
Once one leaves Islam, one is no longer a Muslim, so how can the Syariah court have jurisprudence over a person not of the Muslim faith?
"* 4) Of inheritance rights - Seeing as to the fact that Muslims and non-Muslims are governed by different inheritance laws, and the fact that non-Muslims cannot inherit from Muslims, one can easily imagine then the gory court battles that would emerge from disputes on inheritance."
Perhaps.
But just as with marriage laws, these can be changed to reflect the situation.
Hence, it is a poor excuse.
"* 5) The impossibility of religious enforcement - Consider perhaps, a man eating eating in public in the fasting month of Ramadhan who, when arrested by religious officers, professes to having left the Islamic faith. The religious officers would be unable to perform their duties if so."
Most foolish reason yet.
One would only have to produce one's identity card with religion on it, and the religious officers will be forced to leave him/her alone.
One of my friends who is actually Chindian, but with coffee-coloured skin closely resembling a Malay, goes through this process at least once every Ramadhan. Clearly the Islamic faith has not been destroyed, and neither has JAIS' power been diminshed.
Besides, religious enforcement officials could do well to learn a dose of humility and professionalism when conducting their business, with even staunch muslims feeling uneasy with their high-handed ways and rude manners.
You are right on one thing though, this is NOT a battle for religious freedom. That battle has already been won. Religion is between one and God, and the State or Syariah court or whomever is NOT a go-between.
This, then, is only a battle between the enlightened and the foolish fundamentalists' who bury their head in the sand and refuse to accept reality. There can be no compulsion in religion, and never a trueer word has been spoken. Or do you not believe the words of the Koran?
To: Anonymous, Well said & with convincing clarity too.
well done anonymous
Bravo Anonymous 4.07AM!!! Well said....
Why is it in Malaysia that laws are required to make it difficult or impossible for Malays/Muslims to leave the Islamic faith? Does Islam not have enough merit or attractive enough to hold on to its followers without legal restrictions? Even funnier is the necessity to deploy religious officers to catch non-fasting Muslims or Muslims committing khalwat. Who are they to judge the alleged offenders? Let Allah in His infinite wisdom judge them Himself when they eventually meet Him. Those officers should instead use their time to reach out to those in need.
Technically true, but omits the fact that the Syariah court had NEVER permitted apostasy (well up until a few weeks ago in Penang), and definitely haS never permitted apostasy of a Malay.
MY REPLY: That's not even true. They Syariah court ALLOWS annulment of declaration of Islam, they did not allow apostasy.
I briefly went through the article and the comments and am commenting on what stuck me the most. I am no lawyer nor am I well versed in the matter of law in Malaysia. I am just your ordinary Joe.
Now what stuck me the most is that why should Lina Joy go the the Syariah court in the first place when she is no longer of Muslim faith.
Simplelah.... Common Senselah Itu pun tak tahu.......... No wonder the country is in this state of affairs.............
Anon says:
"Oh dear, allowing freedom of religion will DESTROY Islam. Funny how Indonesia, which freely allows conversion between faiths is still majority Muslim.
But hey, when rational arguments fail, one can always fall back on simple fear-mongering, eh?"
MY REPLY:In Indonesia Islam is already destroyed.
What we have are just Muslims.
Unless you don't know the difference between Muslims and Islam????
The good news is that they are rebuilding Islamic institutions destroyed under the attacks of Pancasila in Indonesia.
Islamophobes would appreciate your baseless ranting Anon 4:07 AM
anon 4:07 says:
"And besides, the provision is foolish. How can one's race be dependent on one's religion? Does a Caucasian converting into Islam cease to be "White" and instead falls under the "Arab" tag?"
MY REPLY: Are u disagreeing with Article 160 of the Malaysian constitution???
On precedence?
Go learn the Constitution next time anon 4:07 am.
anon says:
"Nothing wrong with that.
Once one leaves Islam, one is no longer a Muslim, so how can the Syariah court have jurisprudence over a person not of the Muslim faith?"
MY REPLY: Again another show of ignorance of the law by anon 4:07.
Leaving Islam is a FELONY and therefore subject to punishment.
Plus, the Federal Court has ruled 2-1 that Lina Joy still falls under the jurisdiction of the Shariah courts.
i don't know why people call your comments as clear? It only shows your ignorance of the country's constitution
anon says:
"
Now what stuck me the most is that why should Lina Joy go the the Syariah court in the first place when she is no longer of Muslim faith.
Simplelah.... Common Senselah Itu pun tak tahu.......... No wonder the country is in this state of affairs............."
MY REPLY: err because she was a Muslim. Wasn't she. And she apostasize herself.
And Apostasy is a crime under the Shariah laws. Isn't it?
And until she gets clearance from the Shariah courts, she is still subject under the Shariah laws.
Shariah laws are supreme too.
anon 4:07 says:
"Perhaps.
But just as with marriage laws, these can be changed to reflect the situation.
Hence, it is a poor excuse."
MY REPLY: What kind of a stupid answer is this???
Only a reflection of your ignorance of the country's constitution and the law.
anon says:
"Most foolish reason yet.
One would only have to produce one's identity card with religion on it, and the religious officers will be forced to leave him/her alone.
One of my friends who is actually Chindian, but with coffee-coloured skin closely resembling a Malay, goes through this process at least once every Ramadhan. Clearly the Islamic faith has not been destroyed, and neither has JAIS' power been diminshed."
MY REPLY: What if he says, i just reounced Islam but my IC is not ready yet?
It's doable isn't it.
I think i've proven your stupidity many times now.
Tulang,
You said:
" MY REPLY:In Indonesia Islam is already destroyed.
What we have are just Muslims.
Unless you don't know the difference between Muslims and Islam????
The good news is that they are rebuilding Islamic institutions destroyed under the attacks of Pancasila in Indonesia."
It seems to us that the only difference between Islam and Muslims as per your definition of Indonesia's Islam is that the institutions of Islam must be present in order for Islam to be alive.
Is there no Allah in Islam? Does Allah need these so-called institutions to be alive? What do you mean when you say institutions then??!!
OK brother, the Malay race in this region exist before Islam did. Then, they were Malay Animist, Malay Hindu whatsoever.
Now the Malay in the Phillipine are Christian and Moslem and the Malay in Indonesian are Malay Islam and also Hindus.
So what. Yes Malay Malaysia is Islam, Islam is Malay in Malaysia, only. That what was written by human in the Constitution.
Guy... Islam is for everybody therefore you don't need to be a Malay to be Islam. Sorry not in Malaysia anyhow.
UMNO Malay and Islam in Malaysia is about system. That all.
why cant you accept the actual fact that what people believe in has got nothing to do with the constitution? Its between you and God, not the constitution. Is the constitution your religion?
what is the point of staying a muslim but profess other faith? Just let her believe what she wants to believe.
You are definitely a selfish man. You should know why, if you dont, let me tell you, because people like Lina Joy wants to be free and happy with her new religion but you are not happy with that, cause you are afraid that more would do the same and that makes you worry and not happy.
why dont you just admit and say directly that it bothers you that there are muslims who wish/want to leave the religion.
its simple rather than trying to use the LAW to justify why muslims cant leave islam.
i wonder why if a non-muslim and convert to islam, fundamentalists like you would jump in joy and praise that islam is the true and only religion. why cant non muslim do the same in malaysia or any muslim country? Why can muslim in western countries fight for what they want and these countries are slowly giving in? why cant we do the same here in malaysia?
are non muslim a lower caste than muslim?
Look this are stipulations in our country's constitution in Article 160.
If you don't like the Malay concept, then go and curse our Constitution
Anonymous said...
why cant you accept the actual fact that what people believe in has got nothing to do with the constitution? Its between you and God, not the constitution. Is the constitution your religion?
what is the point of staying a muslim but profess other faith? Just let her believe what she wants to believe.
MY REPLY: Which constitution are you talking about, sir? If it's the Malaysian constitution, then you're barking up the wrong tree
"They Syariah court ALLOWS annulment of declaration of Islam, they did not allow apostasy."
Hmm this is a bit hard to understand, doesn't the annulment = apostasy?
Anonymous said...
"They Syariah court ALLOWS annulment of declaration of Islam, they did not allow apostasy."
Hmm this is a bit hard to understand, doesn't the annulment = apostasy?
MY REPLY: It means her conversion was never legal. So she was never a Muslim.
anon stupidly puts:
"One also can understand Lina Joy's obvious reluctance to go to Syariah court, given the court's detestable precedent of sending would-be apostates to "rehabilitation camps" which are comparable to Guantanamo Bay and clearly violate every human rights law on freedom of religion."
MY REPLY: I don't see anything wrong with that? Can u tell me why it's wrong?
Tulang Besi said...
Anonymous said...
why cant you accept the actual fact that what people believe in has got nothing to do with the constitution? Its between you and God, not the constitution. Is the constitution your religion?
what is the point of staying a muslim but profess other faith? Just let her believe what she wants to believe.
MY REPLY: Which constitution are you talking about, sir? If it's the Malaysian constitution, then you're barking up the wrong tree
i believe you dont understand the statement cause in your mind, if a sentence contains ISLAM and CONSITUTION = your rebuttal would always be = Article 160 of the Constitution...
if your narrow mind cant get what that sentence means, let me tell you in really really plain and simple english. Religion is a personal thing, you want to believe in simut ka, pokok ka, batu ka, bunga ka, tea cup ka.. its really up to you, thats what you believe. The consitution shouldnt stop you for believing what faith you profess. just make sure what you believe doesnt harm anyone including yourself. Please stop using the "Article 160 of the Consitution" statement, its getting boring.
Islaminasation is taking place, dont worry, sooner or later, Malaysia would be a 100% country. Well even in now school,fundamentalists' like you are trying to brain wash non muslim children to study about islam. Imagine the history books in school, there will always contains sentence like "Abd Ibn XXXX, ahli matematik muslim terkenal" etc. Strange thing is, when i was studying in australia, the history book i had did not contain sentence like "Famous Christian Mathematician, XXXXX".
All we can do is slowing down the process. I believe you would be happy with what i said about malaysia being 100% in the future. Please go ahead and jump for joy.
So just leave Lina Joy alone cause she is trying to live her life. So please let her be happy. She has that right as a human being
"It means her conversion was never legal. So she was never a Muslim."
Ok, this refers to the Penang case.
For Lina Joy, would it mean that it is impossible to leave Islam? Or one born as a malay therefore a muslim , can NEVER leave Islam?
Anon says:
"
For Lina Joy, would it mean that it is impossible to leave Islam? Or one born as a malay therefore a muslim , can NEVER leave Islam?"
YES that's correct. Becuase she can never proof that she was never a practicing Muslimah and she can never prove that she never believed in ISlam and she can never proof that she has never had faith in ISlam.
tulang besi is a munafiq who likes to pick his nose.
I strongly believe she can if she goes to me the Pope and be baptised.
Thats proving it enough, dont you think?
Oh wait, that would just cause another uproar and get few people getting hurt and killed, properties being destroyed, flags being burn.
"YES that's correct. Becuase she can never proof that she was never a practicing Muslimah and she can never prove that she never believed in ISlam and she can never proof that she has never had faith in ISlam."
ok, so can we then safely say that the malays in malaysia got NO choice at all, as far as the laws are concern to choose their religion, cos they are born malay therefore muslims and can NEVER leave Islam.
Oh ya.. if only she proves it by giving hard evidence like filming it, or taking pictures. but fundamentalists cant accept that, since they will stay the video is made using virtual effects and pictures are photoshopped.
But the best is to live telecast the hold baptism proses through all the international networks like Al Jazeera, CNN dtc. Then everyone in the world can watch you live outside the Vatican shouting "THATS NOT CONSITUTIONAL, AS THE ARTICLE 160 OF THE CONSITUTION......"
Free publicity plus fundamentalists will praise you and you will return to malaysia being recognized and conferred the Datuk..no ... Tan Sri... NO..but THE TUN title for you contribution to the country. and that would definitly make you HAPPY!! ;)
you guys ought to stop patronizing this tulang guy. it's rather pointless don't you think? there's nothing you can do to change the way he thinks as he is entitled to his opinions - no matter how stupid y'all think they may be - the same way he disregards your arguments.
ignoring people like these will be the best course of action. they will stay where they are for the rest of their lives.
my advise, leave them well alone - work hard, live well, be happy, vote wisely and vote always.
I just have one thing to say.. Tulang Besi or Abdul Rahman Abdul Talib or whatever.. Seen too many times of this name popping up, everytime I read the article it's the same old crap. U know what, we should just ignore him for all I care.
He says he "travel alot", but all he gained is duty free crap. He said that he slants towards "facts rather than opinions", yet all I see are self opinionated junk. Even the title of the blog, "anti anti-hadeeth" is a clear paradox of what you claim you are.
Arguable everyone has their own opinions, but to reply a comment by calling people stupid or foolish just show the level of intelligence involved here. You know what, u may think other ppl are stupid or foolish or whatever your limited vocabulary have in store, but we all think the same way about you too.
With muslim like you, you wonder why ppl want to leave Islam.
tulang besi is actually charles darwin descendant.
Lol, I may not be as high educated as this fella but atleast I have the basic common sense to know that this article bears the writings of someone with the mind of a 5 year old.
Hahahah. What poor justifications.
And I'm a Muslim.Malay, if u must. Pssh.
Allah is not omnipotent or almighty nor has the spiritual strength to stop Lina Joy from leaving Islam. Simple as that.
Ermm..Was Lina Joy given the oppurtunity to choose the religion that she wanted to profess for the rest of her life?After birth or even after she reached 18?
Just because by chance she was born in a family of Malays who practices Islam, she has to be a Muslim all her life?
Tulang besi has had his ass p*wned, several times over. He wont realise this of course since his mind is stuffed full of arabist shit.
So now you guys are taking pot shots at me now that your argument has failed to materialize any results?
I am laughing until my tears come out guys.
There's a saying in America, if you can't run with the big dogs, then stay on the porch.
I think we can let Lina Joy go now. The religion bashing should stop now. It shouldn't be started at the first place because it will always lead to immature arguments and hatred towards each other. Islam and Christian are Abrahamic religion which share a lot of doctrines anyway. These people should learn to live their life together. People converts between religion because they seeks improvement of their faith or for any other reason but for me, being an atheist who lives an honorable life is much better that a person who claims The Only religion for himself but practicing more vices than Niko Bellic.
And Islam or any religions or beliefs will never cease to existence even if the whole population of this world becoming apostates.
"* 5) The impossibility of religious enforcement - Consider perhaps, a man eating in public in the fasting month of Ramadhan who, when arrested by religious officers, professes to having left the Islamic faith. The religious officers would be unable to perform their duties if so."
Why should there be "religious enforcement" in the first place? Religion is a belief system. Everybody is entitled to believe in what they want to believe. Maybe the man eating during Ramadhan does not believe that fasting makes a difference.
I could not understand how some people want to govern how people should believe! Much less penalize them for not "believing properly".
i just don't understand one small matter... why people don't get the fact that under our constitution... it says one has the right to or in other words freedom to practice any religion....
to me... i just know one thing... never force a person to practice a religion worst... even force some1 to pray! coz if do force some1... he or she wont be doing it full heartly and i believe the person is not gonna gain anything...
one last thing... all religion is for good... if you take the world's big religion such as Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Hindu or wateva la... the basic thing they preach is ...
"be good, do good"
so wateva the religion is... whoeva the person is... be happy that the person have some faith in a religion which helps the person not deviate the path...
-peace out-
“… for Heaven, just Heaven, sends a fearful religion to cruel souls.” – Jacques-Henri Bernardin de Saint-Pierre, 1788
Iron Bones, try a little tenderness, it doesn't hurt!
"Anonymous anonymous"... I truly appreciate your enlightened approach to religious affairs, thank you for saying what you did on so many people's behalf.
Tulang Besi said:
So now you guys are taking pot shots at me now that your argument has failed to materialize any results?
I am laughing until my tears come out guys.
There's a saying in America, if you can't run with the big dogs, then stay on the porch.
----------------------------------
What results? No amount of rational thinking by you would materialize any results!
antares says:
"Iron Bones, try a little tenderness, it doesn't hurt!"
MY REPLY: Antares, I accept your advice and I openly apologize to anyone who feels hurt of my comments.
I mean I am alone against an army, so I might get a bit overboard
Islamophobia exists in Malaysia not due to mis-information but due to the fear factor card that UMNO has played!
Its in the constitution that Malays are Muslims and when UMNO wave the May13 propaganda, what do you expect from the rest?
Secondly, Islam does not stand violence/arrogance/ignorance but instead stands for Peace/Humility and Dialog. Lets not forget Tolerance! (obviously forgotten in Malaysia)
Having said that, I would rather be a Muslim following the teachings of Islam, preached by Prophet Muhammad(P.B.U.H) but NEVER the Islam that UMNO-Malaysia espouses!
How can a Political Party (one that deals with cronism and nepotism)succeeded in spreading a Religion of Peace???
Go Figure....
To all the hardliner moslem,this i says to you...
The syariah can annul declaration of islam but not apostasy, which will send the person to a brainwashing camp ala quantanamo>
well, let me ask....
did lina joy freely convert to islam or was she forced to be circumcised before she can ever talked?
DOES NOT THIS PROVE MY POINT???
and all these while, the bloody fanatic moslem keeps accusing the christians for forcing us natives in malaysia to convert...
all those who convert or embrace christianity in malaysia are all free to leave also.
sadly not for moslem.... so who is forcing conversion?
Born moslem are all forced to convert right? cos they did not make the choice, but by mere accident of birth?
Also, those who are angry that some natives of malaysia convert to christianity is so FUCKING jealos or frustrated that there is little chance of converting them to Islam because christianity brought along education which opened their mind to see WHAT ISLAM REALLY IS.. a big BULLSHIT
To all the hardliner moslem,this i says to you...
The syariah can annul declaration of islam but not apostasy, which will send the person to a brainwashing camp ala quantanamo>
well, let me ask....
did lina joy freely convert to islam or was she forced to be circumcised before she can ever talked?
DOES NOT THIS PROVE MY POINT???
and all these while, the bloody fanatic moslem keeps accusing the christians for forcing us natives in malaysia to convert...
all those who convert or embrace christianity in malaysia are all free to leave also.
sadly not for moslem.... so who is forcing conversion?
Born moslem are all forced to convert right? cos they did not make the choice, but by mere accident of birth?
Also, those who are angry that some natives of malaysia convert to christianity is so FUCKING jealos or frustrated that there is little chance of converting them to Islam because christianity brought along education which opened their mind to see WHAT ISLAM REALLY IS.. a big BULLSHIT
To all the hardliner moslem,this i says to you...
The syariah can annul declaration of islam but not apostasy, which will send the person to a brainwashing camp ala quantanamo>
well, let me ask....
did lina joy freely convert to islam or was she forced to be circumcised before she can ever talked?
DOES NOT THIS PROVE MY POINT???
and all these while, the bloody fanatic moslem keeps accusing the christians for forcing us natives in malaysia to convert...
all those who convert or embrace christianity in malaysia are all free to leave also.
sadly not for moslem.... so who is forcing conversion?
Born moslem are all forced to convert right? cos they did not make the choice, but by mere accident of birth?
Also, those who are angry that some natives of malaysia convert to christianity is so FUCKING jealos or frustrated that there is little chance of converting them to Islam because christianity brought along education which opened their mind to see WHAT ISLAM REALLY IS.. a big BULLSHIT
To all the hardliner moslem,this i says to you...
The syariah can annul declaration of islam but not apostasy, which will send the person to a brainwashing camp ala quantanamo>
well, let me ask....
did lina joy freely convert to islam or was she forced to be circumcised before she can ever talked?
DOES NOT THIS PROVE MY POINT???
and all these while, the bloody fanatic moslem keeps accusing the christians for forcing us natives in malaysia to convert...
all those who convert or embrace christianity in malaysia are all free to leave also.
sadly not for moslem.... so who is forcing conversion?
Born moslem are all forced to convert right? cos they did not make the choice, but by mere accident of birth?
Also, those who are angry that some natives of malaysia convert to christianity is so FUCKING jealos or frustrated that there is little chance of converting them to Islam because christianity brought along education which opened their mind to see WHAT ISLAM REALLY IS.. a big BULLSHIT
Anon 2
ok im new here
I shall call myself ANON2
the thing with religion is...
Islam is all about rules.. They pray 5 times a day.. which the christians and other religions don't.. i respect that...
Christianity is all about personal relationships with God... Thats what the Jesus Freaks claim..
IMHO... there is no moral absolutes.. I read the bible a few times and i am going to make an effort to read the Quran at least once in my lifetime...
There is actually no reason to insult other peoples beliefs... but I also believe that one should have freedom to choose.
Anon favours freedom of choice while tulang besi favours rules and regulations...
and even though I am for the freedom of choice thingy.. i cant actually say that the other is wrong cos "there are no moral absolutes"
and the reason why tulang besi defends the constition is becos he grew up in a faith that values rules rather than choice and freedom.
so both of u have legit arguements.. considering your backgrounds..
bring an atheist or a new age spiritualist in here and u get different school of thoughts...
RIAK - dosa paling susah nak elak. Ramai yang 'menghukum' berdasarkan 'I am more knowledgeable and pious than U, thus I am better than you.' Baca sejarah Agama-agama di dunia. The Jews, Christians etc. all had done something similar to what the Malay Muslims are doing to Lina. By being nasty to her, all of U have successfully help 'justify' her action. After all, who wants to be part of a nasty group. In my opinion, find the root cause. Address it if you can. Wah banyak cantik mahkamah manusia pulak boleh pastikan siapa Ialam siapa tidak!!! Sama macam Paderi Kristian boleh hapuskan dosa. Gilo ko???!
anon. asks:
"did lina joy freely convert to islam or was she forced to be circumcised before she can ever talked?
DOES NOT THIS PROVE MY POINT???"
MY REPLY: Well, according to Lina Joy's mother, she wants her daughter to return to her original religion.
If there was any coercion on Lina Joy when she became Muslim, then her mother would have known.
But, Lina's mother didn't say anything with regards to coercion.
But to get confirmation, let us all go and meet her mother and i can assure you there was no coercion.
Can u guys sign your name with something.
It's getting pretty hard to refer to u as anon cause there's so many anon.
Just sign with letters like XXX or YYY is good enough
anon. writes:
"Born moslem are all forced to convert right? cos they did not make the choice, but by mere accident of birth?"
MY REPLY: No, because those born from a Christian families are considered as Christians by the law.
And also those born in Hindu, Buddist, Tao, Catholic, Protestant, Anglican, Methodist etc.
99.99% of them will say that they are not forced by their parents to adopt their religion.
peace out says:
"to me... i just know one thing... never force a person to practice a religion worst... even force some1 to pray! coz if do force some1... he or she wont be doing it full heartly and i believe the person is not gonna gain anything..."
MY REPLY: When u enforce the traffic laws, do you actually ask the people whether they like the laws to be applied on them?
No, because the moment they are born on this land and issued a birth certificate, they are automatically subjected to the laws of this land, whether they know it or not.
In Islam it's the same. Except, it's not birth certificate, it's your shahadah.
there is no point arguing since tulang's only reply is to either laugh at your arguments no matter what you say or reply to ARTICLE XXX....so let me give you my reply
refer to ARTICLE 11!!!!
Very misleading indeed. Are you a lapdog of UMNO?
Give me two reasons why a Malay must be borned a Muslim. Why Malay does not enjoy freedom of religion? For this i find Malays pathetic.
Also give me two reasons why Malay Muslims in Malaysia can practice polygamy but not other places. Is this polygamy issue Malay or Islam?
Do you understand the difference between ethnicity and faith?
You give me shivers, especially when you mentioned you are a technical person. I hope you are not a doctor or engineer.
And as for the Bruneian editor, i give him two thumbs up for rejecting this distorting piece of junks.
I hope you don't go around beheading people that doesn't agree with you. Your Allah Almighty is looking at you and how you distort His teachings.
Salaam alaykum bro Abdul Rahman,
Excellent piece of refutation! Allow me to link my blog to yours. May Allah reward your efforts in defending His Religion, ameen!!
was Salaam
The Freedom of Choice is one of humanity most treasured article. Even God acknowledge it all of us.
Sadly the malays in malaysia do not have this choice, or do they?
Fact: human institution can imposed all sorts and even out right ridiculous laws on us all in the flesh, but they can NEVER shackle our spirits and souls
So you guys out there choose wisely, and as for the malays in m'sia , sorry la you DO NOT have this freedom of choice in religion, except in your spirit.
Dear all,
I just want to take this opportunity to bring some light over the this particular.
The content of this article is a statement of fact, but written in simple English.
If you disgree with them, it's like you're disagreeing that KLCC is located at Jalan Ampang.
No amount of disagreement can change that fact.
The same applies here. For instance, you can disagree till the cow comes home, but the fact remains that Article 160 constitution states that all Malays are Muslims in Malaysia.
If you're not a Muslim, then you're not a Malay.
The article in the Malaysian constitution defining Malays as Muslims is already warped as it is because it definitely does not see the difference between race and religion. Race: Malay. Religion: Islam. As simple as that.
Anyhow, whether the constitution is warped or not does not matter. Lina Joy is not a Malay. Being in Sabah, she would most probably have been a Kadazan Muslim or a Bajau where the majority of them are Muslims. Sabahans have never really cared for all these bullshit about race or religion. To us, it is about being orang Sabah. For us it is about kicking out the illegals from the Philippines and Indonesia who are given MyKads and proclaimed bumiputera. In short, it is more of orang Sabah vs PTIs and orang Sabah includes the Kadazan Dusun Muruts, Bajaus, Sabahan SUluk, the Chinese etc.
Also, when Sabah agreed to be a partner in the Malaysian Federation, one of the 20point agreement says the article saying Malaysia's official religion is Islam DOES NOT, i repeat DOES NOT cover Sabah.
Our history books only tell us about the 20 points but never tell you what it really is.
So there you go. Islam is not the official religion of Sabah and hence the Lina Joy case shouldn't even be a problem.
If you're not satisfied, feel free to read the court transcript, the Federal Court majority judgment and all the related documents.
Then u draw your own conclusion.
Anonymous Anonymous said...
The Freedom of Choice is one of humanity most treasured article. Even God acknowledge it all of us.
Sadly the malays in malaysia do not have this choice, or do they?
MY REPLY::Sorry but I think that is wrong.
For instance, God doesn't allow abortion, yet people justify infanticide based on that and the excuse of freedm of choice.
Tulang Besi,
I salute you for your article. I hope there should be more writings of this type which relate the physical applicacy of our great religion to our daily life. For example, the non-adoption of shariah laws to govern the practice of Borrowing and Lending allows the borrower to use all sorts of excuses not to pay his debts. The civil laws do not only fail to offer satisfactory solutions to the problem, but even often add graver woes to the lender, such as instructing the loan to be repaid in small instalments not commensurate with the lender's sacrifices. I believe, if the Shariah law is used, the borrower would not be prepared to make flimsy excuses and the lender in such a situation would readily forgo his money, being assured that his dues would go to his credit at least DiAkhirat. Wouldn't this help to solve some of our current problems ?
muslim knight,
By all means, and allow me to link your blog to mine.
Wes said...
there is no point arguing since tulang's only reply is to either laugh at your arguments no matter what you say or reply to ARTICLE XXX....so let me give you my reply
refer to ARTICLE 11!!!!
MY REPLY: What about Article 3 that says the religion of the Federation is Islam?
What about Article 121 1A that state High Court has no jurisdiction in matters of Shariah?
What about the fact that Shariah laws have existed before the constitution merdeka?
Point is, liberal interpretation of Article 11 is WRONG.
* 1) Article 160 of the Constitution, which states that a Malay must be of none other than the Islamic faith - i.e. He or she must be Muslim
- i find this article very disturbing. why should a piece of paper determine what religion any person is.
- wouldn't you want every person to have the right to determine their own beliefs. what is there was a law saying that no christians can convert out of it. therefore no christians can ever become muslims! woudln't you be outraged as a muslim? so many souls will never find the peace that we know.
- what is defined as malay?
- science has proven that the idea of RACE is a myth. there is nothing biologically to differentiate the different labels of races apart other than colour of skin and even that is so subjective. you can have a dark skinned chinese fellow because he's a farmer who looks just like a malay.
- what can be differenciated is ethnicity
Ahhh......it seems certain people have gotten offended when the truth is freely offered to them.
"That's not even true. They Syariah court ALLOWS annulment of declaration of Islam, they did not allow apostasy."
AND you answered your own question.
Definitely, I would not go to the Syariah courts myself if I was Lina Joy expecting something approximating "justice".
This would be equivalent to getting a trial at a Soviet Kangaroo court where the verdict has already been predetermined and somehow, still expecting "justice" to prevail.
"In Indonesia Islam is already destroyed.
What we have are just Muslims.
Unless you don't know the difference between Muslims and Islam????"
This is among the most ludicrous piece of BS on the entire Internet. LOL.
Islam is "destroyed" in Indonesia? Only in your alternate universe it seems. You display zero understanding of Islam and now attempt to talk as if a scholar?
Islam is hardly "destroyed" in Indonesia, if anything Indonesian muslims are more pious than many Malaysian Muslims, who pay lip service in public but dishonor the true teachings of Islam.
The INSTITUTIONS of Islam in Indonesia may not function as to your liking, but thats none of your business really. And besides, Indonesia is a SECULAR state, which coincidentally, is what Malaysia is as well. Quelle suprise.
"Are u disagreeing with Article 160 of the Malaysian constitution???
On precedence?"
Why yes I am disagreeing with Article 160.
Because it is patently wrong based on scientific FACTS. If the constitution said the earth is flat, would you still agree with it?
"Again another show of ignorance of the law by anon 4:07.
Leaving Islam is a FELONY and therefore subject to punishment.
Plus, the Federal Court has ruled 2-1 that Lina Joy still falls under the jurisdiction of the Shariah courts.
i don't know why people call your comments as clear? It only shows your ignorance of the country's constitution"
Since Merdeka, the Constitution has been changed more than 160 times by the BN government.
I don't see why Article 160 cannot be changed or ammended.
This only proves YOUR ignorance, not ours. If constitutions can be changed for more trivial issues as limiting powers of Raja Melayu, I don't see why it can't be changed to preserve the rights of freedom and religion.
And since you love the constitution so much, here's a gem for you - in no where in the constitution does it state Malaysia is a Muslim state.
"What kind of a stupid answer is this???
Only a reflection of your ignorance of the country's constitution and the law."
It is an answer which reflects the fact that laws can, and have, been changed and ammended hundreds, nay, thousands of times since Malaysia was founded to adjust to changing situations.
Did you not know this?
:scratches head:
"What if he says, i just reounced Islam but my IC is not ready yet?
It's doable isn't it.
I think i've proven your stupidity many times now."
Errrr..........I suggest eating fish heads to improve your IQ. Because rude as you are, the validity of your points are close to nil.
He/She can then produce a formal letter from the court showing he/she has renounced Islam and is waiting for a replacement IC.
You know, similar to one of those letters you get when you lose your IC and need to show it to the Police.
This is something simple, even a toddler should be able to think of that. Surely our Malaysian education system has taught you better than that?
PS: our now "cekap, bersih dan amanah" NRD can produce ICs in less than 2 weeks, so this point is moot anyway.
I guess because you have not much to say, you have to resort to being rude. The fact that so many are against you is perhaps reflective of the fact that your stand does not resonate with the majority of Malaysians.
Salam.
""
"One also can understand Lina Joy's obvious reluctance to go to Syariah court, given the court's detestable precedent of sending would-be apostates to "rehabilitation camps" which are comparable to Guantanamo Bay and clearly violate every human rights law on freedom of religion."
MY REPLY: I don't see anything wrong with that? Can u tell me why it's wrong?""
Well then, now you betray what sort of person you are.
The sort most people would spit on in the street.
If you can't see whats wrong with comitting an innocent woman to a concentration camp for the "crime" of changing her religion (a BASIC HUMAN RIGHT) then I am afraid you are in need of urgent psychiatric help.
Perhaps, one day you will have the wisdom to reflect back on this and understand its implications on an innocent human being.
But I seriously doubt you are that mature.
Tulang Besi...I admire your courage and your efforts to uphold al-haq (the righteous) and there are very commendable and noble. You have done your job, may Allah reward you the same. As stated in Al-Quran..if they meet those ignorants including munafiks...just say salam and pass on. Our jobs, as Muslims are to explain it (about risalah Islam)explicitly and nicely, the best we could) hoping they will understand. Allah has the absolute power to change their hearts, as our jobs are just sampaikan! Don't argue, those guys as He says in Al-Quran...their eyes are blinds, ears are dumbed and hearts are closed. Dont worry, Allah is with us.
The Freedom of Choice is one of humanity most treasured article. Even God acknowledge it all of us.
Sadly the malays in malaysia do not have this choice, or do they?
MY REPLY::Sorry but I think that is wrong.
For instance, God doesn't allow abortion, yet people justify infanticide based on that and the excuse of freedm of choice.
Bones, while you quote the above, the fact remains that mortals like us can STILL choose to obey or not or comply rite? Even one can comit murder and get away with in this life rite? If God doesn't allow(for the moment) then kaboom and we perish in an instant correct? The fact ppl can get away with murder is telling. But God being God will have the last say when the murdering mortal life on earth is done.
So people still have the choice to follow or not. Life is full of choices, but sadly for some it is not.
bg cukup sembahyang 5 waktu tuh dlu sblm buat2 komen utk org lain. tgk diri sendiri tuh dulu...
Good morning everyone,
Speaking as a born and bred Malayseian without any real racial identity due to the fact that my parenst had teh audacity to fall in love and get married and had 3 children who are paying taxes even though they are earning their income from different places in the world as their own country either could not provide "equal" opprtunity> We love this country and we have not only invested our money but our lives to the defence of this country. My family has served honorably in defending this country and yet my own daughter would only be known as a Malaysian outside of Malaysia while in her own country she will be known as bangsa lain lain. Have we not learnt that God wether we call Jesus, Jehovah, Allah or by any other name does not need US to defend Him. Is He not the Creator of all things? Yet in His wisdom He has given the Freedom of Choice. Is he wrong? To my brothers anon, Tulang Besi, Muslim Knight and everone else do you not agree you serve and believe in a great God. Is he not Almighty and all Knowing? Does He not love ALL of us? My only wish in life is when i meet my maker, i can approach Him knowing that I have live the best life i can so that I would hear from Him ... Well done, good and humble servant. I asked for forgiveness from everone if have offended anyone in anyway.
Bones(tulang besi) doesn't think people have a choice in his religion
Bull shit by any other name is still BULL SHIT! 'Forcing' ALL malays to be muslims shows how weak malaysia govt is!
Like it or not, the malays in M'sia got NO CHOICE but to be muslims the moment they are born, is that correct Bones?
obviously metal bone here is entitle to his opinion like everyone else.
i dont understand why does he always bring up the constitution, and article XX.
his understanding of basic human rights might be lacking, maybe he ought to read some more books regarding human rights.
whats happening to humanity? we should be moving forward, but it seems that we are moving backwards. Tolerance among muslim and non muslim is getting slimmer and slimmer.
Maybe one day if the constitution states that every muslim must be a non muslim after 18 years old, maybe then he will understand what are we trying to tell him.
that is a real sad, sad, sad 'god' if he can't even do anything to prevent his followers from leaving the faith.
and by the way, he 'needs' a courthouse to keep up the numbers of his followers.
definition of 'god' is all-powerful, so losing one person wouldn't do anything to reduce his power right?
Anonymous... I like your way of thinking...
Does any one know if there are other countries constitution that state that a particular race must be of a particular religion???
If yes.. then all non muslims who have converted to Islam..you are not muslims according to the constituiton because you are not malay..
ha ha ha ha ha... so now I have a chance to become a non-muslim again.. after all, after I converted, the people who converted me have deserted me, including my husband...
Tulang said:
"What about Article 3 that says the religion of the Federation is Islam?"
What a blatant disregard for the whole sentence. It also says that other religions can be practised freely
"What about Article 121 1A that state High Court has no jurisdiction in matters of Shariah?"
Even so, in the case of Lina Joy, even if she went to the Shariah court first, the High court has no need to meddle in the affairs of the Shariah court if they had followed Article 11 or Article 3.
"What about the fact that Shariah laws have existed before the constitution merdeka?"
Even if the Shariah laws have existed before Malaysia was ever set up, it doesnt defeat the fact that we now have a new set of laws (that coexist with the Shariah laws). If that is the case, would the British still administer the hanging and quartering of criminals long ago? Different times call for different laws
"Point is, liberal interpretation of Article 11 is WRONG."
I do not see where I have gone wrong. Please elaborate because all your replies seem to just be telling people that they are wrong without any proper constructive reasoning
Salam....
A firm stand, Tulang Besi. A mukmin must not afraid to defend his religion even he seem to be alone.
I'm with you, Tulang Besi.
Tulang Besi said...
YES that's correct. Becuase she can never proof that she was never a practicing Muslimah and she can never prove that she never believed in ISlam and she can never proof that she has never had faith in ISlam.
Tulang Besi said that you can never prove that she was never a practicing Muslimah and she can never prove that she never believed in Islam and she can never proof that she has never had faith in Islam.
How does she prove that she was a practicing Muslimah and she believed in Islam and she has faith in Islam?
Tulang Besi said...
MY REPLY: Are u disagreeing with Article 160 of the Malaysian constitution???
On precedence?
Go learn the Constitution next time anon 4:07 am.
June 26, 2008 5:20 AM
Interesting how you are professing to protect your faith, and yet you hold a constitution written by man to precede your faith.
I found the topic is very interesting. If the article 160 is correct in saying that, a Malay must be a Muslim. Correct me if my understanding is wrong... Does it also means that other races can enter Islam but may choose to leave it in a latter day. Since, you are what race you are and you can't change that. The article does bring the opposite effect also.
Furthermore, if a malay chooses to denounce his main malay heritage, and choose his/her minority heritage as a orang asli, Chinese, bumiputera or etc, since most of us are inter-mixed. Then, he/she should be allowed to distant him/herself from been tied down on this article.
Just my 20 cents opinion
This article only makes me feel so damn lucky that I was not born into a muslim family in Malaysia. If I were, I would be sooo miserable and sad all my life because tulang besi's favorite Article 160 would make me a felon if I were to practise the most basic human right, the freedom of choice. And I don't think I want to believe in a god that uses Article 160 and the courts to prevent people from exercising their freedom of choice. Is there even such a god??? Constitutions and courts are man-made, rite? So this particular god actually subscribes to the man-made Article 160 and relies on the courts in Malaysia to keep his faith and his flocks in check???! What a sad, sad, sad god that would be. Again, I must thank my lucky stars that I was not accidentally born to muslim parents. Otherwise, I'll have to reckon with Article 160 and the Msian courts in order to be allowed into heaven when the time comes. That's so depressing...
I don't know what to say. All i see here is baseless rantings and rhetoric with complete disregard to facts.
Please, if u want to say anything, remember that this article is about statement of FACTS in simple english.
It's not an opinion, or a commentary by an individual.
No matter what u think, YOU CANNOT DENY FACTS.
Please remember that.
At least the Sabah guy makes a good factual point, that the 20 articles ensures that Article 3 of the Constitution doesn't apply to SAbah.
Com'n Bones,
Fact: malays in m'sia got No freedom of choice as far as religion is comcerned.
fact: muslims can NEVER leave Islam except,,err chopped?
The Terrifying Brilliance of the Islamic Memeplex
HAVE YOU EVER WONDERED why millions of Muslim men are dedicated to killing Americans? Or why so many are willing to blow themselves up to kill Israelis? Or why they are so committed to blowing up random people in Bali, London, Madrid, etc.?
Islamic terrorists are doing this all over the world, attacking westerners and their own fellow Muslims alike. Why?
Because of memes. A meme is anything that can be copied from one mind to another. The custom of shaking hands, for example, is a meme. A melody is a meme. A recipe for lemonade is a meme. Even the word "meme" is a meme, which has just made a copy of itself in your mind. Read more about memes here: What is a Meme?
One of the characteristics of memes is they can evolve because some memes are better at making copies of themselves than other memes. They get more copies of themselves into other minds.
So memes compete with each other and evolve. Part of the way they become better at making copies is to join together with other memes in a mutually-supporting group. A combination of memes (known as a "memeplex") is often able to get itself into more minds than single memes.
From a memetics standpoint, a religion is a memeplex — collection of memes. One of the memes might be, for example, "This is a holy book."
And the holy book itself is, of course, a collection of memes.
Let's look at how religious memeplexes evolve and compete. To begin with, let's assume we already have a religion established. It already has a holy book and millions of people already have a copy of the memeplex in their minds.
And then there is a slight variation.
The original memeplex had a "live and let live" attitude, and never tried to encourage its followers to get converts. But then someone comes up with the idea that if you can persuade a non-believer to become a believer, you earn some sort of spiritual merit. You are saving souls, and your chances of getting into heaven are better.
Okay, now you have two variations on the same memeplex: One says "live and let live." The other motivates people to spread the memeplex to others.
After a thousand years, which of the two variations will have more copies in the minds of people? I'm betting on the motivated-to-spread-it version.
Let's assume the motivated memeplex is more successful. Does that mean it makes people happier? Or more successful in life? Or have healthier children? No. Just because a memeplex is successful doesn't mean it benefits any of the people holding the memeplex.
The same is true in genetics. Contrary to common sense, a successful gene doesn't necessarily benefit the organism. It is "successful" in the sense that it has made lots of copies of itself and is found in many organisms. But it may actually be harmful for the organism. For example, if there is a gene for alcoholism, and if drinking causes someone to have more children (or start having children younger) than someone who doesn't drink, over thousands of years, the alcoholism gene would be more successful than the non-alcoholism gene even though it is bad for each individual person carrying the gene.
In the same way, the success of a meme doesn't necessarily mean it's good for the person holding that meme.
If a memeplex says it is wrong to use contraception and wrong to masturbate, that memeplex would get itself copied into more minds than an identical memeplex without these two added memes (assuming offspring would be taught the memeplex too).
So the hapless believer, trying to follow the rules and be a good person by avoiding the evils of contraception and masturbation, would have more children than he might want or could afford, causing him to work overtime to support them — working two jobs if he must. It sends him to an early grave, but puts more copies of that memeplex into the minds of future generations than someone without those two memes.
So the memeplex has used the man for its own purposes, or at least that's one legitimate way to look at it. And in a way that sheds new light on Islamic terrorism.
The three elements that make for a successful meme are fecundity, fidelity, and longevity. In other words, if a meme makes lots of copies of itself, copies itself accurately, and lasts long enough to make copies into other minds, it is a successful meme. All else being equal, the meme that makes more copies, or copies with more fidelity, or lasts longer in the mind, will always out-compete a meme that does any of these less effectively.
Now, with that understanding, here's the point: If you were going to deliberately design a combination of memes with the purpose of making a memeplex that could eventually dominate the world — one that would eventually out-compete every other memeplex — you would be hard-pressed to do better than Islam.
Let's look at some of the individual memes within the Islamic memeplex:
1. A standardized version of the memeplex is written down, which makes for perfect replication fidelity. This is something basic to several religions and isn't an Islamic invention, but it is an important factor in the success of Islam.
Something only transmitted orally can change over time, but something written will be identical a thousand years from now, and with modern printing presses, can be reproduced in the millions, giving it enormous fecundity and fidelity.
2. The Koran includes instructions for its own spread. It tells believers they must spread Islam. It is their holy duty to bring Mohammad's warnings and Islamic law to every corner of the world.
3. The memeplex includes instructions for its own preservation, protection, and replication fidelity. The Koran, the most important of the Islamic holy books, directly tells its followers that they can never change or modify or "modernize" any of the teachings within the memeplex. It is a capital sin to try to do so. The memeplex ensures its own preservation this way.
These first three memes are pretty standard for several successful religions. But now it gets interesting...
4. Islam commands its followers to create a government that supports it. This may be one of the most brilliant innovations in Islam. Islam is the only religion that uses it. Other groups of religious people have had political aspirations, but no other major religious group orders its followers — as a religious duty — to create a government that follows its own system of law.
Islam has a system of law, called Shari'a, and all Muslims are obligated to continually work toward making their government — wherever they are — follow it. Because of some of the other memes added to Islam, you will see that this political addition to the memeplex has significant consequences. I think this is Islam's most brilliant innovation, and also the most terrifying to non-Muslims.
5. Permission to spread the memeplex by war. This is another brilliant innovation. Although some other religions have spread themselves using force, they had very little justification from their own religious doctrines.
Not so with Islam. Expanding by conquest is very much accepted and encouraged by the memeplex. The poor non-Muslims not living in an Islamic state need to be saved from the sin of following laws other than Allah's. If they won't voluntarily change their laws to Shari'a, then it is the duty of Muslim warriors to insist. The world cannot be at peace until every government on earth follows the laws of Allah.
The use of warfare combines with the instruction to create an Islamic state. So Islam spread quickly as their armies got bigger. They conquered and set up Islamic states, many of which have lasted to this day, and as you'll see, the laws within an Islamic state make it very advantageous to convert to Islam.
This is one of the most effective methods ever invented for getting the Islamic memeplex into huge numbers of minds. It's a method of control and indoctrination similar to those used successfully in communist and totalitarian states. But as you discover below, Islam makes unique use of the power of the law to enforce complete conversion to the memeplex.
6. Lands must be conquered. Lands that Islam has lost must be reconquered, like Spain and Israel, for example. The Islamic empire must continually expand. Contraction is bad, expansion is good. So if a land was once Islamic and now it is not, that is contraction, and must be remedied.
According to this meme, the earth is Allah's. If there are parts of the earth not following Islamic law, it is the duty of the faithful to gain control of that land and establish Shari'a. It is a sin to let it be.
7. The memeplex provides for new soldiers by allowing polygamy. A Muslim man can marry up to four wives, and he can have sex with as many slave girls as he wishes.
The Koran especially encourages men to marry widows. This is an important meme to add if you are going to be losing a lot of soldiers in war. You need some way of replenishing your army. You don't want the memeplex to die out from a lack of offspring.
8. It is a punishable offense to criticize Islam. You can see why this one is a good supporting meme for the memeplex. It helps curb any memes that would reduce the authority of Islamic memes. This one, like many of the others, is good for the memeplex, but bad for people. This one limits freedom of speech.
9. You can't leave Islam once you're in. This is an interesting one. It is actually illegal in Islamic states to convert out of Islam. This is a critical part of Shariah law. Someone who has rejected Islam who was once a Muslim is an "apostate." This is a crime and a sin, and the punishment for it is death (and eternal damnation in hell thereafter).
Obviously, you can see why this meme has been included in the memeplex, but this one has actually caused Islam a problem because those who are following Islam to the letter consider more "moderate" Muslims (those who want to ignore or alter the more violent passages of the Koran) to be apostates. Since the punishment for apostates is death, fundamentalist Muslims are fighting modernizing Muslims all over the world, and keeping many rebellious, modernizing Muslims from speaking up for fear of death.
Every time a group of Muslims decides that maybe Islam should be updated for the 21st century and maybe women should have some rights or maybe the government should be more democratic, the devout Muslims call them apostates and try to kill them.
The memeplex is protecting its own fidelity (the original memeplex cannot be altered). This is not good for the organisms (the Muslim human beings), but it's great for the memeplex.
Another meme in Shariah law says it's against the law for anyone to try to convert a Muslim to another religion. Again, this is a meme to help protect the fidelity of the memeplex.
10. Islam must be your first allegiance. This is a great meme to add if the goal is world domination. You are a Muslim first, before any allegiance you give to your family, your tribe, or your country.
This does two things: It causes a unity of people across borders, and it allows the group to grow bigger than any other entity. In other words, the "Nation of Islam" can grow bigger than any country, no matter how large (which gives the group a massive numerical advantage).
11. The only guarantee of a man getting into heaven is if he dies fighting for Islam. This is a great meme for creating fearless, enthusiastic warriors, especially given the vivid description of the sensuous delights of heaven.
A Muslim man has a chance of getting to heaven if he is a good Muslim, but it is not guaranteed. However, if he dies while fighting for Islam, he is guaranteed to get in, and that's the only thing he can do to guarantee it.
12. You must read the Koran in Arabic. This unites believers by language, and language is a very powerful unifying phenomenon. For added incentive to learn Arabic, another meme says you can't go to heaven unless you pray in Arabic.
So all Muslims all over the world share a language. This makes it easier to coordinate far-reaching campaigns of protest, political pressure, and war. I doubt if Mohammad foresaw this possibility, but this meme is brilliant, even if it was an accident.
13. You must pray five times a day. This is one of the five "pillars" — that is, one of the five central practices of a Muslim. Within an Islamic state, it is enforced by law. Every Muslim must pray five times a day. The practice helps the memeplex dominate a Muslim's life, infusing his daily rhythm with Islam.
It would be impossible to forget anything you deliberately do so often. Five times a day, every day, a Muslim must bow down and pray to Allah.
Research has shown the more effort a person expends for a cause, the more he believes in it. So this is a good way to eventually make believers out of people who became Muslims through coercion.
Islam completely takes over every aspect of Muslims' lives. Not only are they required to pray five times a day, they have to go through a washing ritual beforehand. Islam dictates the laws, and the laws cover many public and private behaviors. In an Islamic state, it is impossible to be a casual Muslim.
14. The prayers involve moving together in time. When Muslims pray, they all face the same direction, they bow down, get on their hands and knees, and put their face on the mat, all in unison, and then rise back up. Again and again.
When people move together in time, whether dancing or marching or praying, it creates a physical and emotional bond between them. That's why all military training involves close-order drill (marching in unison), even though it has been a long time since military groups have actually marched into combat. There is no longer a need for the skill, but all military training has retained this method because it is so effective at creating a strong feeling of unity between soldiers.
The same is true of any physical movements people make in unison.
15. A woman is in a thoroughly subordinate position. This meme really helps support the war meme. If women had too much influence, they'd try to curb the fighting. Women in general don't like to send their husbands and sons off to war. But if women have no say, then the rest of the memes can express themselves without interference. By subordinating women, the memeplex prevents their effective vote against war, violence, and conquest.
The rules and laws (memes) within Islam that keep women subordinate are numerous. For example, she is not allowed to leave her house unless she is accompanied by a male relative. Under Islamic law, a woman is forbidden to be a head of state or a judge. She can only inherit half of what a man can inherit. In court, her testimony is only worth half of a man's. She is not allowed to choose where she will live or who she will marry. She is not allowed to marry a non-Muslim or divorce her husband. Her husband, however, can divorce her with a wave of his hand. And according to Shariah, he can (and should) beat her if she disobeys him.
All of these rules keep her subordinate, which helps keep the war machine going unimpeded by domestic conflict.
16. The only way a woman can get into heaven for sure is if her husband is happy with her when she dies.
This meme obviously helps with the subjugation of women. It motivates her to subjugate herself. It gives her a strong motivation to subordinate her wishes to her husband's, because while she might have a chance to get into heaven if she's a good Muslim, the only way she can guarantee she will go to heaven (and avoid eternal suffering in hell) is to make sure her husband is happy with her when she dies.
17. Allah gives Himself permission to edit his own work. This is an interesting one. The Koran was written in sections (Mohammad's revelations) over a period of 23 years. The circumstances of Mohammad's life and his religion changed quite a bit over those 23 years. It says in the Koran that if a passage written later contradicts an earlier passage, then the later one is the better one.
One of the memes in the Koran is "this is the word of Allah." People had already memorized his earlier revelations, so Mohammad couldn't just change his revelations. It would look a little strange to go change anything that Allah already said.
But with this new meme — that later revelations abrogated or nullified any earlier revelations it contradicted — Allah's methods could change as Mohammad found more effective ideas.
18. The Koran uses the carrot and stick to reinforce behavior. Throughout the book are vivid descriptions of hell, where sinners and non-Muslims will have to drink boiling, stinking water, will be thrown face down into a raging fire, and will be there for eternity, suffering endless torments in agony.
There are also vivid descriptions of heaven. In heaven you'll wear green silk robes and recline on plush couches. Trees will shade you, fruit will dangle nearby. You'll have tasty food and refreshing drinks served in silver goblets. To have a chance of achieving this, you must be a devout Muslim. To guarantee it, you must die in jihad (for men) or make sure your husband is always happy with you (for women).
19. It provides a huge and inspiring goal. Leaders of countries or companies or religions have all discovered that you can get the most motivation and enthusiasm from your followers if you provide them with an expansive vision. An enormous goal. In the Islamic memeplex, the goal calls for a continuous effort to expand the domain of Islamic law until all the world has submitted to Islam.
Many religions have the goal of converting everyone, but Islam has a method available nobody else has: To expand by seizing and converting governments to Shariah.
Once the whole world is Islamic, peace will reign. That's why even terrorists can say with complete sincerity, "Islam is a religion of peace."
The Koran says it is best if non-believers accept Islam and become Muslims without force. But if they refuse, then you must fight them and conquer them and save their poor souls by insisting they live by the laws of Allah.
Once all countries are conquered, the world will be at peace. Therefore, Islam is a religion of peace.
It is an enormous and inspiring goal, and a strongly unifying purpose. It creates motivated, enthusiastic followers.
20. Non-Muslims must pay a large tax. Once Muslims conquer a country and convert the government to Islamic law, any non-Muslims have the choice between becoming Muslim or becoming a dhimmi. Dhimmis are allowed to practice their non-Muslim religion if they pay the jizya (a tax). If they convert to Islam, they no longer have to pay a tax, so there is a practical incentive to convert.
But another aspect of this makes it a brilliant meme. The tax takes money away from the non-Muslims and their competing memeplexes and gives that money to support Islam. This is pure genius!
The income from these taxes (usually a 25% income tax) helped fund the Islamic conquests during the first two major jihads. They conquered vast lands, most of them already filled with Christians and Jews, many of whom did not convert at first, and their jizya poured huge sums of money into the Islamic war machine.
Eventually, the numbers of Christians and Jews dwindled down as they converted or escaped, until now, in most Islamic countries, Jews and Christians are very small minorities.
The tax-the-non-Muslims meme helps the Islamic memeplex make more copies of itself by suppressing competing religious memeplexes and financially supporting the Islamic memeplex.
Several memes within Shari'a law extend this effect. Non-Muslims are not allowed to build any new houses of worship. They're not even allowed to repair already-existing churches or synagogues. This puts the houses of worship of any competing memeplex in a state of permanent decline. Brilliant.
Also, non-Islamic prayers cannot be spoken within earshot of a Muslim — again, preventing Muslims from being infected by a competing memeplex. No public displays of any symbols of another faith may be shown either.
All of this prevents the spread of any competing memeplex, and makes competing religions die out over time. That's why today there are so many "Muslim countries." Almost every other country in the world is made up of many different religions.
One added meme makes it that much easier for Muslims to dominate non-Muslims within an Islamic state: Non-Muslims are not allowed to own weapons of any kind. To subjugate a people, all dictatorial rulers in the history of the world have done the same thing: Disarm the subjugated people. They are much easier to manage, less dangerous, and less capable of upending the status quo.
21. A Muslim is forbidden to make friends with an infidel. A Muslim is allowed to pretend to be a friend, but in his heart he must never actually be a friend to a non-Muslim. This is one of the best protections Islam has against Muslims leaving the faith.
In any other religion (except Islam) conversions to a new religion are made because a friend introduced it. This rule effectively prevents that. This meme effectively prevents competition from other memeplexes.
22. The Koran councils the use of deceit when dealing with infidels. Mohammad instructed one of his followers to lie if he had to (in order to assassinate one of Mohammad's enemies). The principle was clear: If it helps Islam, it's okay to deceive non-Muslims.
This principle has served Islamic goals very well through history. And it serves those goals today. There are real-life examples of Islamic leaders saying one thing in English for the western press, and saying something entirely different to their own followers in Arabic a few days later.
Deceiving the enemy is always useful in war, and Islam is at war with the non-Islamic world until the whole world follows Shari'a law. All non-Muslims living in non-Islamic states are enemies. So deceiving westerners is acceptable. Even encouraged if it can forward the goals of the spread of Islam.
And so we have the strange phenomenon covered by Steven Emerson in Terrorists Among Us, where organizations in America were ostensibly raising money for orphans, but really giving the money to terrorists. They deceived good-hearted western infidels into giving money to organizations that were actively killing western infidels. As it says in the Koran, "War is deceit." This meme gives Islam a tremendous advantage over memeplexes that encourage indiscriminate truthfulness.
23. Islam must always be defended. This meme is a primary linchpin that gives justification for war with almost anybody, as you'll see in the meme below. After the enemy is defeated, of course, Muslims are required to establish an Islamic state.
24. The memeplex instructs on the use of pretext to start wars. The Koran devotes a lot of time complaining about people who did not support Mohammad when he first started his religion, with Allah often condemning them to torment in hell in the hereafter.
If the only way to get to heaven is dying while fighting for Islam, you need war. And if it is your holy duty to make all governments use Shariah law, you need to conquer those governments. But you don't really want to look like the aggressor. Appearances count. All throughout the Koran, Mohammad tries to justify his aggression as defending Islam.
And because of the rise of multiculturalism (respect for all other cultures) in the West, the use of pretext convinces people in the West who are unfamiliar with Islam. Many people think al Qaeda is angry at the West for having troops in Saudi Arabia. That's merely a pretext. They want all non-Muslims out of the Middle East. Then they say they will cease hostilities. It is a ridiculous and impossible goal, so they are justified in permanent war against the West.
And it's surprising that so many westerners are fooled by this one because it flies in the face of a fundamental western principle: Equality. What Osama bin Laden is saying is infidels are so undeserving, their very presence defiles their holy places. Wow. What does that say about the filthy infidel?
Why doesn't this kind of racism or prejudice or infidelphobia (or whatever you want to call it) outrage more westerners? Instead, many think the west ought to pull out of the Middle East so these poor offended terrorists aren't so angry with us any more!
The principle of pretext is to provoke a hostile reaction and then use the hostile reaction as a reason to escalate hostilities. It's the same method schoolyard bullies have used for probably thousands of years: "What are you looking at? Hey, you bumped into me! Now you're going to pay! Nobody disrespects me!"
25. The explicit use of double standards. Islam has one standard for Muslims, and a different standard for non-Muslims, which always gives the advantage to Muslims and provides incentives to convert.
For example, Islam must be spread by its believers, wherever they are. But when other religions try to spread their own memeplex, Muslims are supposed to see it as an aggression against Islam — an act of aggression that must be "defended." Remember, Islam must always be defended.
Another example of how the double standard meme gives the memeplex an advantage: When Islam is defamed in any way, Muslims should violently defend it. Even in a cartoon. But Muslims can and should defame Jews and Christians in Muslim newspapers and television, and they should defame any infidel or enemy, as they defame the U.S. today.
Here's another example: The Islamic fundamentalists of Saudi Arabia are pouring money into building mosques all over the free world. But according to Shari'a law (Islamic law), which is the law in Saudi Arabia, no non-Muslim religious structures are allowed to be built. However, Muslims all over the world protest loudly and violently when anyone in Europe or America resists the building of more mosques in their countries.
They don't see the irony in it. They don't feel strange having such an obvious double standard. They are, after all, Allah's followers and everyone else is deluded. Fairness and equality with such unworthy infidels would seem very out of place. A double standard seems completely appropriate from that perspective.
The double standard principle is part of the memeplex, and it has been a great advantage to the spread of Islam (and the suppression of competing memeplexes).
26. It is forbidden to kill a Muslim (except for a just cause). It is not forbidden to kill an infidel. This causes a bond between Muslims, fear in non-Muslims, and motivation to become Muslim. This is also another example of an explicit Islamic double standard.
WE CAN ADMIRE the brilliance of the Islamic memeplex in an abstract, intellectual sort of way, but it is terrifyingly real. Millions of people try to follow these memes to the letter. And their belief in the memeplex is strongly supported by the side-effects of Shari'a law. By making the government and laws ruled by Islam, the memeplex applies two powerful principles of influence: social proof, and authority.
Everyone practices the religion in an Islamic state (or they are flogged, taxed, or killed) and no one can criticize it, not friend-to-friend, and not through any media. The psychological impact of this is enormous. Three generations later, it would be almost impossible for any Muslim living in that state to think outside of Islam. The authority and social proof would be overwhelming.
If you were trying to come up with a memeplex to take over the world, I don't know if you could do better than Islam.
The success of a meme has nothing to do with making people happy or healthy. Memetic success only means it propagates well.
The same is true for genes. A successful gene is one that gets the most copies of itself into future generations. The genes making up a deadly virus may kill millions of people and cause untold misery, but from a genetics point of view, the virus is genetically successful.
Genes don't care about people. They don't try to make us happy. They are cold and indifferent to our plight.
Same with memes. A memeplex will use up and spit out human lives in the service of its propagation, indifferent to the pain, misery, or death it causes.
A memeplex, well-drilled into someone's head and reinforced by the powerful authority and social proof of his whole society, can cause him to blow himself up just to kill others for the fulfillment of a fantasy goal of ultimately attaining world peace and the triumph of Allah (and a harem of 72 dark-eyed voluptuous beauties devoted to his every wish).
Many Muslims now living in Islamic states are trapped and would defect from the memeplex if it were safe to do so.
And even those who like being Muslims can be released from the hold the memeplex has on their minds. Like suddenly "coming to" when you're being hypnotized, the understanding of memetics itself can help undermine the hypnotic effect of the religious beliefs.
And the first thing in the multicultural and tolerant society need to be aware of is the formidable memeplex threatening to overtake us all. The memeplex takes advantage of tolerance and freedom.
People that have submitted to Islam or born into Islam may feel they had no choice (or their parents or grandparents felt they had no choice). They are being used by the memeplex.
We must not judge Muslims too harshly. Many of them are in some way rebelling against some of the memes, but out of custom, guilt, or because their Islamic government violently enforces the rules, they practice the religion like the rest of them or they will be label as not a good Muslim.
"Muslims are the first victims of Islam," wrote E. Renan. "Many times I have observed in my travels in the Orient, that fanaticism comes from a small number of dangerous men who maintain the others in the practice of religion by terror.
The memes in your head (such as a blind faith in multiculturalism) are not the kind that will convert you into a Muslim, but they help the spread of Islam by taking down your defenses, and even encourages you to spread information that makes the non Muslim easier to defeat.
"Actually, what they mean by 'Islam is a religion of peace' is that their mission is to make the whole world submit to the law of Allah (Shari'a), and once that is accomplished, then will be peace in the world. Therefore, Islam is a religion of peace. That's not really peace as we know it."
Salam.
Without any emotional intention to belittle any religion or opinion, I think most of the argument in favour of Lina Joy made here are based on the following premises:
1. That Lina can have freedom to choose her religion.
2. That muslims have no right to interfere in another muslim's decision to change religion.
3. That matters of religion are personal to holders and should not be forced upon anybody.
To understand why Islam is seen as contradicting the above, let us see then what are the concepts that muslims hold on to, contributing to the actions, beliefs and views that the muslims so firmly belief in:
1. Islam as a religion is a supreme concept and of utmost importance. This is natural as any religion is supposed to be from God, and God created everything and has power over everything. God is above all, the very same concept as other religions too.
2. Muslims regard fellow muslims as brothers and sisters while maintaining harmonious relations with other fellow humans. Their concerns for other muslims will be most obvious when it comes to matters of religions, as it is about God and God is above all.
3. While human has the right to choose, including choosing the religion, human can always choose wrongly. This is especially so when a particular religion is chosen because of worldly interest, humanly love, cultural and social inclination, etc, but not on the truth of the religion. This is not only the case of muslims choosing to embrace other religions, but for others to embrace Islam too.
4. As religion is supposed to be above all else, the choice should only be based on truth alone. By leaving the religion, you are indirectly saying: "that was not the truth".
Based on these, when a muslim is leaving Islam, their counterparts will be worried, as he/ she is leaving a religion from God which is above everything else. Did he/ she convert for the truth of the other religion, or is it because of love, cultural or social inclination above the truth. Or if it is because the other religion is believed to be true, has he/she understood Islam to the extend that he/ she believed that Islam is not true?
This is very important because it is about right or wrong, heaven and hell. If a muslim strongly believes that by being a good muslim, he is going to heaven, then would he be willing to see his brother/ sister leaving Islam and going wrong or going to hell? Muslims then have to take responsibility, and Islam shows the way for them to undertake the responsibility. The counselling sessions are nothing like a torture camp. It is to explain Islam if he/ she does not fully understand. And also to make sure he/she does not leave Islam because of his/her misunderstanding of the truth, but rather bacause of very personal interest and wrong judgment.
In fact, I wonder why people of other religions e.g. christians and buddhists and hindus are not concerned about their people changing religion like changing slippers. Don't they react seeing their brothers going the wrong path? By a person leaving a religion, he is indirectly saying that the former religion is not the truth. Don't you feel that you are obliged to explain why it is otherwise.
To me, if you don't feel obliged, and just succumb to the supposed fact that choosing religion is a personal choice, then you have a very shallow faith on your religion. And you don't love your fellow mates when he choose the wrong path. Unless you also have doubts about your religion and just remain in the religion for reasons other than the truth. If Islam has a divine system to deal with this sort of crisis to protect its dignity and other religions don't, then don't feel offended.
For muslims, I don't think there is any shame in defending the faith of our brothers and sisters for that is a responsibility. This is the system that has seen very rare cases where people leaving Islam by disputing its truth. No holds barred, mostly leave bacause they want to drink beer, they want to freely gamble, love and lust, sex without marriage, financial difficulties etc. Going through the case of Lina Joy, these are also the roots.
Absolutely nothing wrong in defending your own beliefs. Tulang Besi has the right, the Anons have their rights.
But quoting the constitution to claim as universal truth? I hope that's not what's happening here.
Everyone knows that the constitution is meant to be the supreme law of the land. Meaning any laws that are drafted should not go against the constitution. Who wrote these laws? Certainly not Allah, God, Buddha, or whichever deity you believe in. It's written by humans. Humans have written some stupid laws in the past (I don't think this is disputable). But when in court, they have to look at the constitution to deliver judgement, and in Lina Joy, perhaps they used the Article 160 as their guiding light in delivering judgement, instead of using Article 11. Was the judge wrong in interpreting the law? Maybe not. If the judge used Article 11 as a determinant in their decision making, then would the judge be wrong in interpreting the law? Maybe not as well. What we have here is an imperfect constitution with contradicting articles. (That is why I see NO problem in the article since it is arguing on a legal basis)
So to use the imperfect constitution to argue legal facts, sure, that's OK.
But to use the constitution to claim that some things are indisputable, I guess that's why some of the followup comments just sound like bullshit.
For example,
Fact: EC chairman should step down at 55 years old (Before Nov 2007).
Fiction: EC chairman should step down at 55 years old (After Nov 2007)
Fact: Malays are Muslims (Now)
Fiction: Malays are Muslims (if the constitution is amended to change article 160)
What I am trying to say is, what is claimed as fact now could be fiction later.
So stop waving the fucking constitution around if you intend to claim something as universal fact.
Wow, this memeplex just open an entire can of worms for the still sleeping non muslims in m'sia and perhaps all over the world.
Bones, if your bones are made of iron(tulang besi) some guys out there got iron or maybe steel balls! Fact: Freedom of choice is a basic universal human right
""In fact, I wonder why people of other religions e.g. christians and buddhists and hindus are not concerned about their people changing religion like changing slippers. Don't they react seeing their brothers going the wrong path? By a person leaving a religion, he is indirectly saying that the former religion is not the truth. Don't you feel that you are obliged to explain why it is otherwise.""
It's not that the other religions are not concerned but they accept the free choice if individuals. Toi say that one has a shallow faith because of this, hey are you God to judge??
Here is my summary of the contraditions in Malaysian constitution and laws concerning this issue in layman's language:
1. Every Malaysian has the right to choose his/her own religion except Muslims.
2. Muslims can embrace another religion with the approval of the Islamic courts but the approval will never be given. ( except the Penang case after the prime minister vowed to solve this issue after losing support from non-muslims during the election)
3. No Muslim can never leave Islam even unto death. The religious department would snatch the body from the family.
4. Any marriage would be automatically disolved if one partner becomes Muslim while the other is not.
5. Any children below 18 would be considered a Muslim if one of the spouse become Muslim. The children would be awarded to the muslim spouse.
6. Non-muslims cannot receive inheritance from Muslims.
7. Everyone can propogate his/her religion except to Muslims. Muslims can use state instruments to propogate Islam because Islam is the 'official' religion of the country.
9. Islamic activities will receive Federal and state funding. The religious courts, the religious department , religious schools, muslim activities etc will all receive Federal and state funding.
10. Muslims can opt to pay zakat instead of income tax. The Zakat will be channelled to fund Islamic activities only. The Zakat will not be used to benefit non-muslims. Thus, majority of the country's expenses would be funded by non-muslims only!
11. Anyone found propogating other religion than Islam to Muslims would be punished by jail sentences.
12. Anyone can be the Mentri Besar in Malay states but he/she has to be a Malay ( thus a Muslim )
You seem to be a fearfull, paranoid and delusional person. I hope that your kind will become extinct in the future. I certainly dont want my children exposed or influenced by narrow minded, fearfull people like you. Why don't you address more pertinent social issues such as the high unemployment rates of local graduates etc. Go back into your cave and stay there.
Aiyah, why you so like this? Your prophet preach Peace but is a conqueror himself...!!!??? Oops, no wonder you are SOOO LIKE THAT!
Wake up... convert to something that preach AND practice Peace... anything other than the paradox of being a Muslim...
Tulang,
The truth is Article 160 only applicable to malay race and not other race who embraced muslim. That is the clear stated fact. It clearly stated that a malay must be muslim but it doesn't stated that a Chinese/ Indian /other bumiputera muslim who embraced muslim must be muslim till end of his/her life.
In such, other article on freedom of religion will take over.
My 5 cents opinion
The laws can be change or should be changed if it is NOT appropriate or even confusing... If you are a follower, then, follow, don't try to lead or mislead...
Why still arguing AND fighting on who-said-what WHEN you cannot even figure out the obvious issue in this subject. It's NOT about Lina Joy BUT about Article 160...
As long as it's not change...
Fundamentally, the Muslims are following a paradoxical religion...
Peace be unto You... but I will kill you if you don't respect me...agree with me...
Their Big Boss is a known killer and takes their wife... oh, also a knowm paedophile... common, let put your Boss on trials...
Yea, let put the Muslim Boss in the Syariah Court...
"Peace be unto You... but I will kill you if you don't respect me...agree with me..."
Yo! man
Assamualaikum,
May God AlMighty have mercy on your soul as you have committed shirk. There is no compulsion in religion as GOD has promised that ALL of us will be judged during the Day of Judgment.
If you persists in believing all you have written, then is it very clear HELL is your final destination.
Dear Anonymous,
the verse 02:256, refers to not coercing people to join Islam.
If we go by your understanding then there is a CONTRADICTION in the Quran.
Example "Aqimusalah..." which is an order, "..perform the prayers..".
The verse above is not merely a coercion, IT IS AN ORDER.
dear anonymous,
I never said that Artikel 160 applies to non-malays. I only said that it could be a loop hole for non malays to qualify for special treatment and previlages.
Article 3 says that Islam is the religion of the Federation.
So, is a liberal interpretation of the Article 11 valid?
Abdul Hamid CAJ (as he then was) in Kamariah bte Ali v Kerajaan Negeri Kelantan, Malaysia opined that in allowing Article 11 to be construed so liberally would entail making invalid entire bodies of Islamic law; e.g. Zakat laws, marriage laws, et cetera. (In short, all Islamic laws would be rendered null and void.)"
Can we allow liberal interpretation of Article 11 that eventually result in the nullification of Islam?
Countries all over the world have death penalty for traitors. Why can't religion have one?
Fools will yell and yell for no reason. Despite these people arguing for Lina Joy are not even Muslims.
They have all right to leave and enter any religion they want.
Yet they just wanna cry foul here and poke nose into something that concerns Malays only!
Now dont quote of a few instances where non-muslims got entangled, by and large it appies only to Muslims - and MOST muslims want it!
Whats the use of having Syariah law if conversion is accepted?
If I get convicted under Syariah, I can merely change my religion to escape being tried under Syariah.
For the sake of argument, say you wanna make conversion acceptable, you just cannot when there are many other laws that are based on it. Its like pulling out a can from the base of a tower of cans placed at a supermarket. Everything else will tumble.
Hence it is reasonable to pick up cans from the top of the tower and pick up the one at the base in the end.
So bring back this conversion isssue only when all the other laws, including Syariah laws become irrelavent.
And this Lina Joy thinggy is not even a debate amongst Muslim community in Malaysia, its more of a debate between Muslims and non-muslims. I wonder why? when this has to do with Muslims only.
Had this been an issue, it wud have been more of a debate amongst Muslims - which is clearly not the case. All you can hear is few like Harish Ibrahim and so, yelling on top of thier voice.
Thier arguments are of mere concern to Malays themselves.
His points are only receiving applause from the Non-Muslims.
DrXYZ
There are a few anonymous comments,
that have had no shame in uttering profanity and rebuking Islam as a religion itself.
These self-styled Christian,
as one anonymous comment said Jesus is peace, and was not even a conqueror comparing to Muahmmad (SAW).
Christians dun even know thier own religion, your own Bible has innumerable versions with many different meanings, where is the real script? eh? dunno...
Did u know in Christianity too!! Apostacy is unnaccebtable..
haiyya.. who cares!
Jesus never fought a battle?
Heard of Moses then? Ah!! You cant jump over Moses who fought a battle.
How come a prophet Moses who fought a battle and THE LORD JESUS contradict his own commands to Moses to fight the unbelievers and drown them all!
Get facts right!
http://www.answering-christianity.com/
From the BIBLE..
Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."
"And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die."
2 Chronicles 15:13 "All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman."
Matthew 15:1-9
1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked,
2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"
3 Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
4 For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'
5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,'
6he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 " 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"
STOP calling others BULLSHIT
When you know not yourself what "BULLSHIT" you believe yourself.
I never made these verses,
they are word to word as quoted form the BIBLE. go and open one of your own personal copy if you do not believe me!
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deut%2013:6-9;%201%20Kin%2018:40&version=49
There will be no end to this...
The best religion is a clear conscience and the ability to sleep well at night.
By the way, Malays will always be muslims in law, but not necessarily in spirit.
For every Lina Joy, there are hundreds of 'silent Christians' among the Malays, who dare not come out into the open about their belief and inner conversion to Christianity.
Religion is between man and God. Not laws and set of rules made my man.
The world would have been a much better and peaceful place if there had only been one religion or no religion at all.
can someone tells me as to why some melanaus in sarawak carries IC with a bin/binti in it whereas they are practising christian?
seems melanaus are automatically classified as malays?
To anonymous who quoted from the books of Deuteronomy, 2 Chronicles and Matthew, I am glad you are reading more than your own religious books. Unfortunately, you are reading out of context and without understanding the metanarrative. You must first learn to read rightly, then you will understand what the verses you have read imply.
The metanarrative tells us that man cannot save himself. No matter how hard he tries, he cannot obtain salvation through good works. It is for that reason that God took the initiative to redeem man. Hence, Jesus Christ, fully God, fully man. Read Deuteronomy, 2 Chronicles, Matthew, and indeed the whole Bible, but read within context and the metanarrative.
Khalid Mahmood
wow ... memeplex and the entrapped malay soul.
As for the memeplex,heard of the same approach so long ago but its was more about Talmudic Judaism, White Supremacy KKK, Bolshevik down to Aryan supremacy thingy. So now its the Muslim turn. Well its nothing new anyway. Just another spin around the same old theme East against West/Black against White/Greco-Roman against Persia/Asia, Aryan against Semite/Jews against Goyim/Gentiles, Judeo-Christian against Islam right down to brother against brother, son against the mother. As like any boxing ring matches, there will be sponsors and there will also be crazed spectators all round.
So this memeplex threat thing ... are they going to redeemed Austwizt past by putting in bad memeplex copies? Pretty scary for the memeplex eh? I have always thought that the Cold War was a big hoax and the buildup of nukes was only meant for somebody else over a different excuse.
Reading about a poor Native chief in a Caribbean island was about to be burned alive but was compelled by the priest from Colombus party to accept Christ as Saviour otherwise be damned in hell, he retorted back "If heaven is where the Christian goes to, he wants to be in Hell". The whole population of that island was decimated after providing hospitality to these Christian. He was among the last remained before being burned. Of course there were hundred millions of culling in the last 2000 years. Eugenics is an ancient science mind you.
Them Muslim always had a bad image spin hundred or more centuries ago for spoiling the Roman Christian West party to conquer the world using the Cross and sword funded by the new money guys from Jerusalem. Therefore nothing new about memeplex anyway. After Muslim who is next, Hindus and the Sino Asian or Africans?
No wonder the Temple was doomed in Ist century AD. Old Law gone superceded by new Super Law but challenge by another Super Law to check them. One says Ok to kill of old/woman/children or whatever breathing in the land while the other said otherwise in the conduct of war.
If I were to look at the state of natives in North and South America, Philiphines, I get the picture how this can turn to be here.
So the Malays are trapped in the Constitution and no way out? So go save them la and see if they want to be just either but not both.
www.answeringislam.com
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